UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
AT TACOMA
CHERYL LINDSEY SEELHOFF,
a married woman,
Plaintiff, Tacoma, Washington
vs.
PAT and SUE WELCH,
husband and wife,
Defendants.
Docket No. C97-5383FDB
Tacoma, Washington
August 31, 1998
Trial
Volume 2
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN D. BURGESS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a Jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:
BARBARA J. DUFFY
GWENDOLYN PAYTON KLEIN
Lane Powell Spears Lubersky
1420 Fifth Avenue, Suite 4100
Seattle, Washington 98101-2338
For the Defendants:
RUDY R. LACHENMEIER
LORI DeDOBBELAERE
Lachenmeier, Enloe & Rall
9600 S.W. Capitol Highway
Portland, Oregon 97219
Court Reporter: Teri Hendrix
Union Station Courthouse, Room 3100
1717 Pacific Avenue
Tacoma, Washington 98402
(253) 593-6545
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
produced by Reporter on computer.
Excerpt from transcripts Volume 2 September 1, 1998 Pages 210-445
How to use these documents.
A complete copy of the transcript are availble on an independent web site.
http://members.aol.com/Hsingcase/index.html
(Link provide by permission)
Documents can be ordered by writing to:
US District Court
Western District of Washington
P.O. Box 1935
Tacoma, Washington 98401
261
1 something to do with her going out of business.
2 MR. LACHENMEIER: Your Honor, all I am trying to do --
3 THE COURT: I know what you are trying to do, but I am
4 giving you direction. I am asking you to follow those
5 directions.
6 MR. LACHENMEIER: I am going to try a couple specific
7 questions. If there's still a problem I will change
8 immediately.
9 THE COURT: Well, let's do that. I will send the jury
10 out and I will deal with it.
11 BY MR. LACHENMEIER:
12 Q. In your magazine did you talk about the need for Christians
13 to not be hypocritical because of its impact on children?
14 A. Sure.
15 Q. Every issue talked about Titus 2 and the need to be devoted
16 to your family and your husband; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Yesterday when you talked about Titus 2 you talked about
19 learning from older women, but that's only part of it. The rest
20 of Titus 2 has to be with being chaste, keepers at home,
21 discreet and obedient to your husband?
22 A. That's right.
23 THE COURT: Counsel -- let me have you step out for a
24 minute.
25 (Jury not present.)
262
263
1 THE COURT: Mr. Lachenmeier, I am trying to make myself
2 as clear as I can. This is not a religious trial, whether this
3 woman violated some of her canons and that kind of thing.
4 The issue here is a legal issue. I understand that the
5 Welches are saying this is the reason they did what they did,
6 and that's fine. It's up to the jury to buy into whether or not
7 that is the case.
8 But that is not a legal defense, except it may go to their
9 motive and what they intended by doing what they're doing.
10 But here you are trying this lady on whether or not she's a
11 good Christian. I hear what you are saying, but you are not
12 hearing what I am saying.
13 I am saying: Unless it is going to establish a defense for
14 your client, let's move on to the issue that we are here to
15 decide.
16 If you won't do that, then I will shut down your
17 cross-examination or I will deal with sanctions. I will deal
18 with whatever I say I have to do, feel I have to do, because you
19 won't adhere to what I am saying.
20 I think you say yes to what I am saying and then you decide
21 you are going to do what you want to do.
22 MR. LACHENMEIER: That's certainly not what I am trying
23 to do.
24 THE COURT: I don't know what you are trying to do, but
25 this is the way I am perceiving it.
1 I am saying, don't do that. Get to the heart of the issue
2 as to -- get an answer to the question, and not what a Titus
3 woman is supposed to be and all of these things.
4 I think it is clear. Ms. Welch, if she wants to come here
5 and present why she did what she did, I will hear that.
6 I am not going to hear it in the fashion that you are doing
7 here, reading the magazine, and saying well, you are writing
8 these things and obviously you are not living the Good Book.
9 Well, that may be true, I have no argument with that, but I
10 am not trying the Good Book or the teaching.
11 I am asking you, in the fashion that you are going about it,
12 to stay away from that.
13 Ask her the question: Did you live the life that you are
14 professing? I think we know the answer to that. I think these
15 folks know that, too.
16 You want to turn this into some statement, I guess,
17 Christian versus what she did.
18 That is not the case here. I made that clear in the
19 pretrial conference. I am trying to make it clear here again
20 now. I am getting to the point where I feel that you are giving
21 me lip service, but you are defying what we've discussed.
22 MR. LACHENMEIER: That's certainly not my intentions.
23 THE COURT: I don't know your intentions, because I
24 can't read your mind, but I know what you are doing.
25 MR. LACHENMEIER: There's several things that she
264
1 testified on direct examination to which there are specific
2 references into her magazine which belie.
3 For instance, she has said that Claude was abusive to her
4 for years and years. I would like now to get into those
5 sections in her magazine where she wrote, just six months before
6 this happened
7 THE COURT: Then ask her that question: Did you lie
8 about that? Then if you have something to show that she lied
9 about that, do that, and let's move on and not get to all of
10 this as to how lovey-dovey the family was, and all of these
11 things that have got nothing to do with this case.
12 I am not here to spend all my time here to try this issue.
13 This issue you've got to take back to the church, if she should
14 be ex-communicated, it sounds like that has happened already,
15 then do that.
16 I can't handle that here.
17 MR. LACHENMEIER: I hear what you are saying.
18 THE COURT: I wish you would go for that.
19 We will take the morning recess.
20 THE CLERK: All rise. This Court is now in recess.
21 (Morning recess.)
22 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated.
23 (Jury present.)
24 THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed.
25 BY MR. LACHENMEIER: