UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
AT TACOMA
CHERYL LINDSEY SEELHOFF,
a married woman,
Plaintiff, Tacoma, Washington
vs.
PAT and SUE WELCH,
husband and wife,
Defendants.
Docket No. C97-5383FDB
Tacoma, Washington
September 2, 1998
Trial
Volume 3
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN D. BURGESS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a Jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:
BARBARA J. DUFFY
GWENDOLYN PAYTON KLEIN
Lane Powell Spears Lubersky
1420 Fifth Avenue, Suite 4100
Seattle, Washington 98101-2338
For the Defendants:
RUDY R. LACHENMEIER
LORI DeDOBBELAERE
Lachenmeier, Enloe & Rall
9600 S.W. Capitol Highway
Portland, Oregon 97219
Court Reporter: Teri Hendrix
Union Station Courthouse, Room 3100
1717 Pacific Avenue
Tacoma, Washington 98402
(253) 593-6545
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
produced by Reporter on computer.
Excerpt from transcripts Volume 3 September 2, 1998 Pages 446-683
How to use these documents.
A complete copy of the transcript are availble on an independent web site.
http://members.aol.com/Hsingcase/index.html
(Link provide by permission)
Documents can be ordered by writing to:
US District Court
Western District of Washington
P.O. Box 1935
Tacoma, Washington 98401
493
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Who was it that you thought you might have to show that you
3 let her speak?
4 A. Probably the Board of Directors, you know, so that they knew
5 I was doing my best to establish facts as opposed to giving my
6 opinion as to the matter.
7 Q. Okay. Did you at any time present any presentation to the
8 board of CHEO regarding this topic of Cheryl Lindsey?
9 A. Oh, yes.
10 Q. You talked to Claude on July 1 before you talked to Cheryl
11 on July 3; is that right?
12 A. Yes, ma'am.
13 Q. When you talked to Claude on July 1, did you ask him or did
14 the issue come up whether he was interested in reconciling with
15 Cheryl Lindsey?
16 A. I do not recall.
17 Q. So as you sit here today, do you recall when you had the
18 conversation with Cheryl Lindsey on the 3rd of July if you had
19 any idea as to whether Claude Lindsey had any interest in
20 reconciling with Cheryl?
21 A. As far as our discussion on the 3rd, I do not recall if I
22 did.
23 Q. As of that time you don't know if you had that information?
24 A. As of that time, I do not know.
25 Q. You said you talked with Cheryl about some issues that she
494
1 had already discussed with others, specifically to write a
2 letter to Rick Seelhoff breaking off her relationship with him.
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Did you ask Cheryl to send you a draft or copy of a letter
6 that you would preapprove before it was delivered to Rick
7 Seelhoff?
8 A. If my memory is correct, I think I see notes of that in a
9 later discussion. I don't recall -- I don't believe that came
10 up in the course of our discussion on July 3 of me having a copy
11 of a letter.
12 Q. You say here -- your notes reflect the words "following
13 agreements." Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Then you list five items you've basically gone through. Did
16 you get the impression Cheryl was agreeing with these issues?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Did you have any conversation what might happen in the event
19 she did not agree with these things?
20 A. At this time, no. Because again I wrote these as
21 agreements, not conditions, that she was agreeing with these
22 matters and there was no thought in my mind that there would be
23 a consequence of not, at this point, to the best of my
24 recollection.
25 Q. By the way, this counseling with Jim Logan, Jim Logan was in
495
1 Iowa; is that correct?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. When you had this conversation with Cheryl, did you have any
4 conversation how it was she would get to Jim Logan?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How was that?
7 A. The Board of Directors was in agreement to pay for Cheryl to
8 be transported to wherever location to submit to counseling with
9 Jim Logan and also agreed to pay for Claude Lindsey. The desire
10 of the board was to see this marriage reconciled, and though it
11 seems contradictory toward wanting money back, that was based on
12 the ethics of not having Claude in the hotel room with her. The
13 intent, though, was to reconcile this marriage, and the board
14 was committed to doing that, even should it cost them
15 financially.
16 Q. So as of July 3, 1994, you had already obtained board
17 approval to pay for Cheryl Lindsey and Claude Lindsey to have
18 counseling with Jim Logan?
19 A. I would say as of this discussion, I did not. I did not
20 know we were going that way. This was a discussion I had
21 brought up. Subsequent to that there were members of the board
22 advised of this. And subsequent to July 3 the board had agreed
23 that would be a good direction.
24 Q. In your conversation with Cheryl, though, on July 3, did you
25 suggest to her that the CHEO board might pay for this
496
1 counseling?
2 A. I do not recall if I did at that point. I don't know if the
3 subject came up even as far as where Jim was located as far as
4 costs, I don't recall that we discussed costs at that point.
5 Q. Do you recall if Cheryl had any reaction to Jim Logan and
6 receiving counseling from him?
7 A. Yes, she was pleased that it would be someone of his
8 caliber, having met him at the convention.
9 Q. Anything else that you recall about her reaction to Jim
10 Logan?
11 A. No, no, nothing else.
12 Q. Did the issue of Joe Williams come up at all in this
13 conversation of July 3, 1994?
14 A. I do not recall if it did.
15 Q. I thought you had mentioned that you sensed from Cheryl some
16 reluctance to seek counseling from Joe Williams, which is why
17 you suggested Jim Logan. Did I misstate that?
18 A. I don't think that's how I stated it. I sensed because of
19 this church dismissal process. See, Cheryl began to inform me
20 she was no longer at the church. I don't know if she indicated
21 a reluctance to talk to Joe, as much as sensing that she was no
22 longer in an official capacity or any sense affiliated with the
23 church.
24 Q. So in that July 3, 1994 conversation with Cheryl Lindsey as
25 you sit here today or refer to your notes, do you recall if she
497
1 had told you she had withdrawn from Calvary Tacoma?
2 A. I do believe to the best of my recollection, because I had
3 sense that it had just transpired. If I recall, it may have
4 been in this discussion when she informed me that she actually
5 had pulled herself out sooner than that. But I do not recall.
6 Q. By the way, when you talked to Joe and Irene Williams on
7 July 1st did they mention anything to that effect, that Cheryl
8 had withdrawn herself from Calvary Tacoma?
9 A. I don't recall.
10 Q. Mr. Boutot, I want to back up for a moment. You said in the
11 conversation that you had with Cheryl Lindsey on the 3rd of
12 July, that she acknowledged adultery. Were those the words that
13 were used, adultery?
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. Did you ask her what she meant by that? And the reason I
16 ask, there has been a lot of definitional testimony about the
17 word "adultery," and I'm trying to get a handle on your specific
18 conversations with her regarding that topic.
19 A. I do not recall that we went into any type of discussion
20 with regards adultery. Basically, she was acknowledging she was
21 married to Claude, was not even divorced, and was having sexual
22 relations with another man.
23 Q. I guess that's my question, you specifically recall her
24 saying at some point that she was having sexual relations with
25 another man?
498
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Do you recall if you asked that question?
3 A. I do not recall if I asked that or she offered that.
4 Q. By the way, number five on the list of agreements, you have
5 "call me 7-4-94, 6:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. Eastern time." Do you
6 see that?
7 A. Yes, ma'am.
8 Q. Why was that one of the agreements, whose idea was that?
9 A. I would say that was probably my idea, to the best of my
10 recollection. I think there was agreements to be certain that
11 these, that she was following -- she was going forward, that
12 there was a comfort level on my behalf that we would go that way
13 and also for me to make any preparations with Jim Logan and
14 affirmations with the board with regards to authorization to
15 proceed.
16 Q. During this conversation that you had with Cheryl Lindsey on
17 the 3rd, did you discuss at all her publication or continuing
18 publishing Gentle Spirit magazine?
19 A. Oh, not -- I do not recall.
20 Q. Did you discuss with her the maintaining her finances or
21 whether the financial control of Gentle Spirit or any business
22 that she had should be put in other hands?
23 A. At this time, with regard to the July 3rd?
24 Q. Correct.
25 A. I do not have a recollection of that.
499
1 Q. Then let's take a look at the next entry, and it appears to
2 be related to a telephone conversation with Roland; is that
3 right?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Do you know who called who?
6 A. Typically when I write spoke with, that is I initiated it.
7 If it's call from or received from, it's their initiation. So
8 to the best of my recollection I initiated this discussion, this
9 phone call with Roland.
10 Q. And you initiated that call at 2 a.m. Eastern time?
11 A. 2:30 a.m. That's correct.
12 Q. And do you know why it was that you called Roland at 2:30
13 a.m.?
14 A. Again, we're now -- we have Cheryl alleging Claude being
15 abusive to the children. We have Claude denying being abusive.
16 Roland, being one of the children, I'm going to the next level
17 of factual to determine whether or not Claude had been abusive
18 towards him.
19 Q. Why was that important to you, to determine whether Claude
20 had been abusive?
21 A. At this point in time, for the most part all the
22 testimony -- the testimony -- all the discussions have been
23 rather consistent. No one seems to be denying anything on the
24 other person's behalf. Cheryl is acknowledging adultery, Cheryl
25 is acknowledging being with another man. Claude is
500
1 acknowledging anger. The only thing that seems to be in dispute
2 is Claude's abusiveness. And it seemed at the point to be
3 important to me to ascertain from the children's perspective to
4 determine any accuracy from that and go back to Cheryl to
5 indicate any denial of abuse unless they focused on other
6 issues.
7 Q. I take it before you called Roland at 2:30 a.m. Eastern
8 time, you understood Cheryl was going to break off her
9 relationship with Rick Seelhoff and she was going to dismiss her
10 divorce proceedings, is that fair?
11 A. That is fair to say, yes.
12 Q. Why did you call Roland at 2:30 a.m.? Why at that time?
13 A. It would have been 11:30 Seattle time. I may have asked
14 Cheryl, you know, if he would be up. I don't know why. Believe
15 me, I would have rather gone to bed at that point in time, to my
16 recollection. So I can't say why I recall at that time.
17 Q. If you were -- do you recall if on the inside flap of our
18 Cheryl Lindsey folder, would you find Roland's telephone number?
19 A. To the best of my recollection, I believe you would.
20 Q. Do you recall who gave you Roland's telephone number?
21 A. I do not recall who gave me Roland's telephone number.
22 Q. Do you recall if you looked it up yourself, is that
23 possible?
24 A. No, I would not have had the ability to look it up myself.
25 Q. You would not have had the ability to call directory
501
1 assistance and get a phone number for Roland Lindsey?
2 A. I would have had the ability to do that.
3 Q. Do you know if you did that?
4 A. I would not have done that.
5 Q. Why wouldn't you have done that?
6 A. I don't pay the extra quarter when I have other means of
7 doing that.
8 Q. Let's see. Can you read for me those notes of the
9 conversation?
10 A. "Spoke with Roland. Denies any physical abuse by Claude.
11 Agrees Cheryl/Mom needs to step down. Will accept dollars
12 transfer to him (not debts). Will F/U" which indicates
13 "follow-up with his mother, re" or "regarding commitments".
14 Q. Do you recall what you meant when you wrote "agrees that
15 Cheryl/Mom needs to step down"? What were you referring to?
16 A. Roland had had some discussions. I don't recall where they
17 were generated, but there had been apparently discussions or
18 suggestions that Cheryl step down from her role with Gentle
19 Spirit. And he was agreeing that she should step down or needed
20 to step down.
21 Q. And to your knowledge, do you recall bringing that topic up
22 with Roland, whether Cheryl Lindsey should step down from Gentle
23 Spirit?
24 A. No, to the best of my recollection, that was brought up by
25 Roland.
502
1 Q. Okay. As of this point, do you recall if you had discussed
2 that topic with anybody else?
3 A. At that point in time, to the best of my knowledge I did
4 not.
5 Q. You say there he agrees that Cheryl needs to step down. Do
6 you recall who it was he was agreeing with?
7 A. I do not recall.
8 Q. So I take it you never suggested to Roland that Cheryl
9 Lindsey step down from publishing Gentle Spirit?
10 A. No, the suggestion was not mine.
11 Q. Did you ever make the suggestion to anybody, that Cheryl
12 should step down and stop publishing Gentle Spirit?
13 A. When I heard this was being suggested, I agreed with it.
14 But I can't say that I suggested it. I agreed that it appeared
15 to be a proper direction. I do -- now -- that's it there.
16 Q. Did you suggest that money should be transferred to Roland?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Do you know what you're referring to there, "Dollars
19 transferred to him"?
20 A. In my discussion with Claude, issues came up about finances.
21 I don't have them documented, but I remember his discussion with
22 regards to finances. At some point in time, either the
23 Williamses or Roland or Claude had talked about getting money
24 out of the hands of Cheryl. She had been allegedly spending
25 money loosely with this gentleman, it might be best for the
503
1 protection of the family assets, for the children's sake and
2 whatever, to transfer money to Roland. Roland advised me that
3 he's willing to accept the transfer of money that was going to
4 be arranged either through the church or through an attorney, I
5 don't know.
6 Q. Okay. And the money that you're referring to, do you know,
7 was that the money that was the proceeds from the publication of
8 Gentle Spirit?
9 A. To the best of my recollection, that's what it would have
10 been.
11 Q. As you sit here today, you don't recall whose suggestion it
12 was?
13 A. I do not recall whose initial suggestion, I wouldn't know
14 whose initial suggestion it was.
15 Q. Did you, sort of focusing on that last line regarding your
16 conversation with Roland, did you suggest to Roland Lindsey that
17 he follow-up with his mother regarding the commitments?
18 A. To the best of my recollection, that's what I was intending
19 to determine there, that he -- well -- right, that he will
20 follow-up with his mother regarding her commitments as outlined
21 above.
22 Q. The following entry "S/W" which would indicate to you "spoke
23 with Joe and Irene Williams;" is that right?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And that would indicate to you you initiated the call to Joe
504
1 and Irene Williams; is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. I take it that was sometime after you called Roland at 2:30
4 a.m.; is that right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Why is it you called Joe and Irene sometime after 2:30 a.m.?
7 A. I don't know why I chose that time.
8 Q. Okay. But why is it that you felt the need to talk to Joe
9 and Irene after you had talked to Roland?
10 A. I can't recall what my motive was then by reading my notes,
11 other than to bring this to a conclusion and -
12 Q. I'm sorry, bring what to a conclusion?
13 A. My involvement in this situation, that she would get her
14 family back together and I would go back to running our
15 organization.
16 Q. And that was your goal in being involved in this situation,
17 to get the Lindsey family back together?
18 A. That was one of my goals, yes.
19 Q. Did you have any other goal in being involved in this
20 situation?
21 A. Not that I can recall. You know, my motivation was for the
22 restoration of this marriage and this family.
23 Q. Okay. At any time were you motivated by assisting Joe and
24 Irene Williams with church discipline?
25 A. Oh, no.
505
1 By the way, I didn't ask you, in that entry on 7-3-94, you
2 said you shared with Cheryl Lindsey your principle of "the point
3 of no return"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. What did you mean by that?
8 A. In having dealt with other matters wherein an individual is
9 involved in an immoral sin, as would be classified by adultery,
10 I have shared with individuals that if they are truly a
11 born-again Christian, a Christian, true believer, part of the
12 Body of Christ, whichever terms you select, when confronted with
13 their sin, should they choose to repent, there would be
14 restoration, and they would continue on.
15 Should they acknowledge their sin, as with Cheryl, but
16 refuse to repent, as had been reported to me, that if they were
17 a true believer and they continued in this lifestyle of sin,
18 unrepentant sin, it would not surprise me to hear of an untimely
19 death, indicating that the Scripture will support God will not
20 be mocked. And I gave her examples, the most pressing of a
21 couple, Ananias and Sapphira, from the Scriptures, Book of Acts,
22 Chapter 5.
23 And then I indicated that should she continue in this
24 lifestyle of sin unrepentant, that the Scriptures might indicate
25 if she did not have an untimely death, that it's an indication
506
1 that she's not a true believer and would be turned over to
2 Satan, based on an example of two in Scripture, one being
3 Hymaneus and Alexander and Janes in Jambres. That's the
4 principle that I shared from a scriptural perspective.
5 Q. Let's take a look at the entry with respect to this
6 conversation with Joe and Irene early in the morning of July 3,
7 1994. First of all, why don't you just read for me what it says
8 there.
9 A. S/W, spoke with -- is there an understanding where I see an
10 abbreviation I can read the note and if there's a question -
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. "Spoke with Joe and Irene Williams. Agreed with commitments
13 above. Suggested additional commitments/fruit. 'No more public
14 speaking" -- I'm sorry, corrected, "no more publishing/speaking.
15 Prepare joint group letter, fax to me first for review, to go to
16 Gregg Harris, The Teaching Home, Bonita Boyce, Joe and Irene and
17 the church, Jonathan Lindvall, also to subscribers.
18 Restoration/repentance to all family. Turn money over to
19 Roland. Not defending reputation."
20 Q. Is the word "not" underlined?
21 A. Yes, it looks like it is.
22 Q. Okay. So in this conversation with Joe and Irene, I take it
23 once again Joe and Irene were on separate receivers?
24 A. That is the best of my recollection.
25 Q. Okay. And as you sit here today, do you recall that Joe and
507
1 Irene agreed with the commitments that are 1 through 5 above on
2 this same page of Exhibit 112?
3 A. That is what my notes reflect, yes.
4 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall if you told them these
5 are the commitments that were made in my conversation with
6 Cheryl? Do you recall if you listed those five commitments?
7 A. I feel certain that I did, and we discussed Cheryl's
8 agreement with those five issues above.
9 Q. Now, I take it from your notes -- do you recall that Joe and
10 Irene suggested some additional commitments they wanted to see?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And one of the additional commitments that Joe and Irene
13 suggested they would like to see from Cheryl Lindsey was that
14 she would engage in no more publishing of Gentle Spirit
15 magazine, is that consistent with your recollection?
16 A. These notes are reflective of additional recommendations
17 made by Joe and Irene to me with regards to Cheryl's additional
18 I used the word "commitments," they use the word "fruit".
19 Q. And what did you understand your conversation with -- based
20 upon your conversations with Joe and Irene, and at this point
21 you had had more than one; right?
22 A. At this point, this is my second discussion with them.
23 Correct. And did you develop an understanding what it is
24 they meant by the word "fruit"?
25 A. I developed an understanding that by fruit they meant
508
1 evidences or proofs of repentance, commitment.
2 Q. Do you recall Joe or Irene using those words, "proof of
3 repentance"?
4 A. I more so recall "fruit". They may have proof, but I noted
5 it because of a varying degree of difference that I utilize. I
6 tend to utilize the terms "proof of repentance" and they had
7 utilized "fruit". I don't have any disagreement with that, just
8 terminologies.
9 Q. Okay. And you do recall in this conversation that one of
10 the additional fruits of repentance suggested by Joe or Irene
11 was that Cheryl Lindsey stop her public speaking, is that fair?
12 A. That is fair.
13 Q. I take it your answer would be the same with respect to
14 Cheryl should stop publishing Gentle Spirit magazine?
15 A. That would be the same.
16 Q. You recall in this conversation that you had with Joe and
17 Irene Williams after you talked to Roland that one of them
18 suggested that Cheryl should prepare a joint group letter, is
19 that a fair statement?
20 A. I can't say -- I don't remember who would prepare this joint
21 group letter. Somebody was to prepare a joint group letter. I
22 guess you're right, I guess it would be Cheryl, it wouldn't be
23 the church since it would be going to the church. So that would
24 be correct.
25 Q. I guess what I'm asking is for your independent recollection
509
1 or your recollection based on your review of the notes, and as
2 you sit here today, is that the suggestion made, that Cheryl
3 should prepare a letter that would be addressed to a variety of
4 folks and entities?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And do you recall if Joe or Irene suggested the individuals
7 to whom the letter would go, Gregg Harris, The Teaching Home
8 magazine, Bonita Boyce, Joe and Irene Williams and the church,
9 and Jonathan Lindvall?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You didn't suggest Jonathan Lindvall?
12 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
13 Q. Do you know who that is?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Who is Jonathan Lindvall?
16 A. Jonathan Lindvall is another nationally known home schooling
17 leader and speaker. More so, I should say, speaker than leader.
18 Q. Has Jonathon Lindvall ever presented a speech at a CHEO
19 convention, to your knowledge?
20 A. I believe he has.
21 Q. Okay. Also, there is a reference to subscribers. Do you
22 see that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Do you recall if Joe and Irene suggested that this letter
25 should also be directed to subscribers of Gentle Spirit