UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
AT TACOMA
CHERYL LINDSEY SEELHOFF,
a married woman,
Plaintiff, Tacoma, Washington
vs.
PAT and SUE WELCH,
husband and wife,
Defendants.
Docket No. C97-5383FDB
Tacoma, Washington
September 2, 1998
Trial
Volume 3
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN D. BURGESS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a Jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:
BARBARA J. DUFFY
GWENDOLYN PAYTON KLEIN
Lane Powell Spears Lubersky
1420 Fifth Avenue, Suite 4100
Seattle, Washington 98101-2338
For the Defendants:
RUDY R. LACHENMEIER
LORI DeDOBBELAERE
Lachenmeier, Enloe & Rall
9600 S.W. Capitol Highway
Portland, Oregon 97219
Court Reporter: Teri Hendrix
Union Station Courthouse, Room 3100
1717 Pacific Avenue
Tacoma, Washington 98402
(253) 593-6545
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
produced by Reporter on computer.
Excerpt from transcripts Volume 3 September 2, 1998 Pages 446-683
How to use these documents.
A complete copy of the transcript are availble on an independent web site.
http://members.aol.com/Hsingcase/index.html
(Link provide by permission)
Documents can be ordered by writing to:
US District Court
Western District of Washington
P.O. Box 1935
Tacoma, Washington 98401
521
1 that you had told her in your second conversation or even in
2 your first conversation that she was to immediately stop
3 publishing Gentle Spirit, would you have any memory to the
4 contrary of that?
5 A. My only memory to the recollection was that it was being
6 suggested by I believe Joe and -- that was being suggested by
7 someone else. I don't recall that we discussed it.
8 Q. If I were to tell you that Cheryl Lindsey testified that you
9 told her one of the proofs or fruits of repentance was that she
10 should immediately stop publishing Gentle Spirit or words to
11 that effect, would you have any memory inconsistent with that?
12 A. I would have no memory consistent or inconsistent with that.
13 Q. Can you confirm or deny that you ever said to Cheryl Lindsey
14 that she should no longer provide back issues of her magazines
15 to anybody?
16 A. I can't confirm or deny that.
17 Q. Can you confirm or deny that you ever said to Cheryl Lindsey
18 that she should never defend herself publicly?
19 A. I have notes that Joe and Irene indicated that. I don't
20 recall if I ever -- you've already asked me did I indicate to
21 Cheryl Joe and Irene's conditions, and I don't recall if I did.
22 If I did, then I would have made that comment.
23 Q. I guess what I am getting at, as you sit here today do you
24 recall one way or another whether you said that to Cheryl
25 Lindsey, that she should never defend herself?
522
I A. I do not recall if I did.
2 Q. As you sit here today and after reviewing your notes, do you
3 recall whether you ever told Cheryl Lindsey she should make no
4 public statements in the future?
5 A. Should make no public statements in the future?
6 Q. Correct.
7 A. I don't recall that. That would be a very broad type of
8 comment. I cannot foresee me making that type of comment. But
9 I don't recall if I did.
10 Q. Do you recall if you ever said to Cheryl Lindsey as a proof
11 or fruit of her repentance that she should not engage in any
12 public speaking?
13 A. I do not recall that. Cheryl spoke with me on the matter of
14 not speaking for a year or something to give time. But I don't
15 recall me making a comment to her of not speaking. I don't
16 recall.
17 Q. But your recollection about this conversation with Cheryl
18 Lindsey was that somebody else had suggested that, not you?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Okay. Well, I guess what I am getting at is can you --
21 well, if Cheryl were to testify, and I'll just tell you she did,
22 that you suggested she write a letter of apology to Claude that
23 you preapprove, would you have any memory inconsistent with that
24 testimony?
25 A. I would have no memory consistent or inconsistent with that.
523
1 Q. Would you have any memory consistent or inconsistent with
2 Cheryl's testimony that you suggested she write a letter of
3 apology to Gregg Harris and others that you preapprove?
4 A. No, I would not.
5 Q. Do you have any recollection consistent or inconsistent with
6 Cheryl's testimony that you told her she was to receive no phone
7 calls?
8 A. I do not recall.
9 Q. You don't recall one way or another?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Do you recall if you ever suggested to Cheryl Lindsey that
12 she should have her children answer the telephone for her at
13 home?
14 A. I do not recall one way or another.
15 Q. All right. When Joe and Irene offered you these additional
16 fruits of repentance, did they give you an idea how it was they
17 came up with these additional fruits of repentance?
18 A. I do not recall.
19 Q. Let's take a look at Bates Stamp Number 15 of Exhibit 112.
20 Have you told me everything you remember about your conversation
21 with Claude Lindsey on 11:05 p.m. on July 4, 1994?
22 A. To the best of my recollection, yes, I have.
23 Q. By the way, as a result of that conversation do you recall
24 if you had developed an impression as to whether Claude was
25 interested in reconciling with Cheryl Lindsey?
524
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. What was that?
3 A. That he was 'agreeing to reconcile with Cheryl Lindsey.
4 Q. Is that because he was agreeing to seek counseling with Jim
5 Logan?
6 A. That's one of the matters, yes.
7 Q. What were some of the other reasons?
8 A. Just the indications that he had shown if she does dismiss,
9 he will begin to believe.
10 Q. You have "answer on divorce due 7-7-94"?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And then there appears to be an 11:35 p.m. entry?
13 A. The 11:35 entry is LM, as in my call, TC, LMTC, is left
14 message to call to Joe Williams, church recorder.
15 Q. That's the church answering machine?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. What's the next entry there?
18 A. 12:02 a.m., "received a call from Jonathan Lindvall".
19 Lindvall is L-I-N-D-V-A-L-L.
20 Q. What else does it say there on that 12:02 a.m. entry?
21 A. "In agreement with all conditions. Should attempt to find
22 someone Rick respects to escort him out. May consider Cheryl's
23 dad (as he is an attorney.) Jonathan will call Sue Welch on
24 July 5, 1994. Hold off on publication of info for now."
25 Q. Do you recall what information you were referring to in that
525
1 last sentence you just read?
2 A. That had been the publication of the Ohio Home School
3 Companion relative to the sale of her tapes.
4 Q. And do you recall, was Jonathan Lindvall suggesting you hold
5 off on publication or was that a note to yourself?
6 A. That, to the best of my recollection, would have been a note
7 to myself.
8 Q. Do you recall in that conversation with -- strike that. Do
9 you know why Jonathan Lindvall called you on 12:02 a.m.?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did he give you some background as to why it was he was
12 calling you?
13 A. I do not recall.
14 Q. Can you tell me what you recall about the conversation?
15 A. I recall Jonathan indicating that the conditions that had
16 been addressed and discussed with Cheryl, that he was in
17 agreement with them. He indicated to me that there should be an
18 attempt to find someone who Rick respects to escort him out.
19 Apparently knowing at the time Rick was there with Cheryl or
20 nearby. He suggests that it might be Cheryl's father because
21 she -- because he is an attorney or was an attorney at the time.
22 He informed me that he was going to be calling Sue Welch, my
23 recollection is to advise her of the status with Cheryl agreeing
24 with these conditions and the restoration of her marriage.
25 Q. Do you recall if you suggested to Jonathan Lindvall that he
526
1 should call Sue Welch?
2 A. No, I do not. I do not recall. My recollection is that it
3 was Jonathan's suggestion.
4 Q. And do you recall if you were opposed to that suggestion?
5 A. I do not recall if I was opposed.
6 Q. Did you think it was odd to notify Sue Welch or to tell Sue
7 Welch, inform Sue Welch about the circumstances?
8 A. I do not recall what my thoughts were at the time.
9 Q. What conditions were you referring to, if you remember, in
10 the second line of this entry?
11 A. Because of the note "all," my recollection would have been
12 the conditions indicated by Joe and Irene Williams, which were
13 reflected on July 3rd, and the five agreements that Cheryl and I
14 reached on July 3rd.
15 Q. Do you recall if you shared all of those conditions with
16 Jonathan Lindvall?
17 A. I do not recall for certain if I shared them or if he may
18 have heard of them from Cheryl.
19 Q. Did you get the impression that Jonathon Lindvall had talked
20 to Cheryl before he talked to you?
21 A. I do not recall.
22 Q. Did you get the impression in this conversation with
23 Jonathon Lindvall that he was aware of the situation?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Can you tell me how it is that you came to that conclusion?
527
I A. Because he called me, and the purpose of the call was
2 relative to Cheryl. There was no other reason for him to call
3 me, to the best of my recollection.
4 Q. The 12:30 reference, I take it you received a call from
5 Roland Lindsey?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Can you read that reference for me?
8 A. "Cheryl was gone by herself this morning, 8:30 to 11:00.
9 Roland thinks she was with Rick. Need to be certain she is
10 always with someone. Told Roland she felt she was being coerced
11 by me. Fears greater publication because of me. Told Roland
12 today what she wanted to do was divorce Claude and marry Rick.
13 Roland discussed consequences."
14 Q. Start with the last sentence you read. Do you recall what
15 you meant by that, "Roland discussed consequences"?
16 A. To the best of my recollection, that is indicative of Roland
17 discussing with his mother, since he spoke with her, of the
18 consequences of what she was doing.
19 Q. Do you recall if you were upset to hear this information
20 from Roland Lindsey?
21 A. I don't recall all my -- I remember being hurt, surprised,
22 maybe upset, that it seemed to be going so well and it just
23 appeared from this call to have taken a turn in the opposite
24 direction, and I was hearing it again through hearsay
25 information.
528
1 Q. Let's take a look at the next entry of Exhibit 112, it's the
2 page with Boutot 16 on the bottom. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Would that appear to you to be an entry of a telephone
5 conversation you initiated with Irene Williams at 4:09 p.m. on
6 July 5, 1994?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. And do you know, did Irene Williams explain to you why she
9 had called you?
10 A. I do not recall. Other than the note here that -
11 indicating she had spoken with Michael Farris and Sue Welch.
12 Q. By the way, you had left a message with Joe Williams at
13 11:35 p.m. on the day before, the 4th. Did Joe Williams ever
14 return that call?
15 A. Not to my recollection.
16 Q. Did you get the impression that Irene was returning that
17 call on Joe's behalf?
18 A. I may have had that impression at the time. I do not recall
19 as I sit here today. It appears to be consistent with my notes
20 that that is what was transpiring.
21 Q. When you had this conversation with Irene Williams on the
22 5th of July, do you know if she had talked -- strike that.
23 Do you know if the letter had yet been read to the Calvary
24 Tacoma congregation, and by that I'm referring to Exhibit 3?
25 A. Again, this issue, I have no idea when that letter was read
529
1 to the congregation, I do not know when it was read or if it was
2 ever read.
3 Q. Can you just read for me your handwriting in that entry?
4 A. "Spoke with Irene. She has spoken with Michael Farris and
5 Sue Welch. Ideally letter needs to come from Cheryl (already
6 discussed.) Letter to leaders (also subscribers), include:
7 Under church discipline; specify sins (lying and adultery);
8 decline all speaking, et cetera; potential replace Gentle Spirit
9 with The Teaching Home. Michael Farris is agreeing with
10 direction. Would rather letter publicizing be letter from
11 Cheryl versus others. Letter needs to be reviewed by me (I will
12 share with others for direction). Also feel Cheryl needs to
13 advise advertisers and columnists so they don't continue to
14 write. Feels I need to call Dr. Dobson, Focus on the Family, as
15 they have been promoting and endorsing. Dr. Dobson has
16 interviewed Cheryl."
17 Then there is a phone number, I believe that is Focus on the
18 Family, 719-531-3400. "Called for Dr. Dobson. He is in England
19 until mid August. Spoke with his personal secretary, Karen.
20 Gave details with no name. She tried to get me to Ralph
21 Zettersten, (in charge while Dr. Dobson gone). Was not
22 available, LMTC," or "left message to call".
23 Q. The notes that you have just read, do they reflect two
24 separate conversations or more than one conversation?
25 A. Yes, they do.