UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
AT TACOMA
CHERYL LINDSEY SEELHOFF,
a married woman,
Plaintiff, Tacoma, Washington
vs.
PAT and SUE WELCH,
husband and wife,
Defendants.
Docket No. C97-5383FDB
Tacoma, Washington
September 1, 1998
Trial
Volume 2
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN D. BURGESS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a Jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:
BARBARA J. DUFFY
GWENDOLYN PAYTON KLEIN
Lane Powell Spears Lubersky
1420 Fifth Avenue, Suite 4100
Seattle, Washington 98101-2338
For the Defendants:
RUDY R. LACHENMEIER
LORI DeDOBBELAERE
Lachenmeier, Enloe & Rall
9600 S.W. Capitol Highway
Portland, Oregon 97219
Court Reporter: Teri Hendrix
Union Station Courthouse, Room 3100
1717 Pacific Avenue
Tacoma, Washington 98402
(253) 593-6545
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
produced by Reporter on computer.
Excerpt from transcripts Volume 2 September 1, 1998 Pages 210-445
How to use these documents.
A complete copy of the transcript are availble on an independent web site.
http://members.aol.com/Hsingcase/index.html
(Link provide by permission)
Documents can be ordered by writing to:
US District Court
Western District of Washington
P.O. Box 1935
Tacoma, Washington 98401
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1 telling you that she had feelings for a man that was not her
2 husband Claude; right?
3 A. No, that wasn't totally made clear during the conversation.
4 Q. But she was sharing with you -- but at some point this other
5 man came up, this other man in her life came up in that
6 conversation; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You had the impression in that conversation that Cheryl had
9 some interest in this other man not her husband, right?
10 A. Yes, I guess so.
11 Q. Do you recall your husband telling Cheryl Lindsey that she
12 should not see this man any more, this man who was not her
13 husband; is that right?
14 A. No, that she should not write to this man.
15 Q. Okay. That she should cut off the relationship; is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. After that conversation with Cheryl Lindsey in April of
19 1994, Cheryl told you that she was withdrawing from your church;
20 is that right?
21 A. No. She said she was withdrawing her fellowship temporarily
22 for a time until she could work out the situation.
23 Q. And you understood she was withdrawing from fellowship with
24 Calvary Tacoma and you and your husband; right?
25 A. Yes, that's true.
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1 Q. As of that date, April 29 of 1994, you don't recall Cheryl
2 Lindsey ever attending another service at Calvary Tacoma; right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, you had a conversation with Cheryl Lindsey -- you and
5 your husband went on vacation after this conversation of June
6 29(sic); correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. LACHENMEIER: Excuse me, counsel. You referred to
9 it once as June, and you're referring to it as April.
10 MS. DUFFY: Thank you, counsel.
11 BY MS. DUFFY:
12 Q. After this conversation with Cheryl Lindsey in April of
13 1994, you and your husband went on vacation; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your next conversation on this topic of Cheryl's
16 relationship with Rick Seelhoff occurred just prior to Father's
17 Day of that year, June 19th of 1994; correct?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. At that time, during the Father's Day weekend of 1994,
20 Claude Lindsey, Cheryl's husband, was living with you and your
21 husband; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And over that Father's Day weekend some of the Lindsey
24 children were staying with you and your husband because they
25 wanted to celebrate -- because it was a Father's Day weekend and
325
1 they wanted to celebrate Father's Day with their father;
2 correct?
3 A.Yes.
4 Q. The Monday after Father's Day -- strike that.
5 During the course of Claude's stay at your house with you
6 and your husband, from time to time you discussed with him his
7 relationship with Cheryl; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And Claude, at some point Claude went back to New Orleans
10 after Father's Day; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And, in fact, it was the day after Father's Day; correct?
13 A. Yes, I think so.
14 Q. Okay. So do you remember if Father's Day was June 29th of
15 1994? It was a Sunday?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the Monday after Father's Day he left; right?,
18 A. Yeah, I think so.
19 Q. And before he left, you understood from Claude that he had
20 no interest in reconciling with Cheryl Lindsey; correct?
21 Before he left, the day after Father's Day?
22 A. No. Initially he had an interest in reconciling
23 Q. Sure, but he changed his mind at some point and advised you
24 that he had no interest just before he left, the day after
25 Father's Day; correct?
326
1 A. Yes, at some time. I am not sure of when, though.
2 If I represented to you that you testified in your
3 deposition that he told you that before he left for New Orleans,
4 the day after Father's Day, would that refresh your
5 recollection?
6 MR. LACHENMEIER: Improper method of doing that, Your
7 Honor.
8 MS. DUFFY: It is, or I could just pull out the
9 deposition and go through all of this.
10 THE COURT: I don't think you need to publish on that
11 issue. I think just the fact that he said at one time he was
12 and then he wasn't.
13 MS. DUFFY: Okay.
14 BY MS. DUFFY:
15 Q. Do you recall Cheryl speaking at the CHEO convention?
16 A. Yes, I knew she was speaking at the convention.
17 Q. That was the CHEO convention in Ohio; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that convention was about June 23 through June 25 of
20 1994?
21 A. Yes, I think so.
22 Q. And she left a couple of days early to go to the convention,
23 was that your understanding?
24 A. Yes and no.
25 Q. Okay.You knew that she left the State of Washington at
327
1 some point around the 23rd or 25th of June, and her intention
2 was to speak at the CHEO convention; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. During the CHEO convention, when Cheryl was gone for the
5 CHEO convention, you had at least one conversation with Cheryl
6 about her relationship with Rick Seelhoff; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You told Cheryl you were considering telling the folks at
9 CHEO that she had a relationship with Rick Seelhoff; correct?
10 A. Yes, kind of.
11 Q. Okay. But you never did do that; is that right?
12 A. No.
13 MR. LACHENMEIER: Your Honor, I don't think she's
14 established this is a hostile witness, and she's continually
15 leading.
16 THE COURT: I think it might speak for itself here, I
17 believe, so you may continue.
18 BY MS. DUFFY:
19 Q. So it was during this CHEO convention, somewhere between the
20 June 23 and June 25 time frame, that you first got a call from
21 Sue Welch?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that call came out of the blue; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Welch introduced herself as the owner of The Teaching
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1 Home; correct?
2 A. Yes, I think so.
3 Q. And prior to that introduction to Sue Welch you weren't
4 particularly familiar with The Teaching Home; right?
5 A. No.
6 Q. In fact, you didn't really know who Sue Welch was; correct?
7 A. Correct, other than a reference possibly in the past that
8 Cheryl had made to her.
9 Q. Fair enough. And you didn't know -- you had no idea what
10 Sue Welch's involvement was in the home schooling network;
11 correct?
12 A. Yeah, basically.
13 Q. In that first conversation that you had with Sue Welch, she
14 informed you that she had talked to Gregg Harris; is that right?
15 A. Yes, I think so.
16 Q. Okay. And she told you that she needed to confirm some
17 information regarding Cheryl Lindsey; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And she called to confirm that Cheryl Lindsey was having an
20 affair with Rick Seelhoff; is that right?
21 A. Yes, I think so.
22 Q. And she told you she needed to confirm this information with
23 you because she had to inform Michael Boutot; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And she told you she needed to inform Michael Boutot because
329
1 he, in fact, was the executive director of the CHEO convention;
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, in that first conversation, in that first conversation
5 Sue Welch asked you if you and your husband were going to
6 exercise church discipline against Cheryl Lindsey; isn't that
7 right?
8 A. She did ask me that. I am not sure if it was in the first
9 conversation.
10 Q. Okay. And that was a topic that Sue Welch had brought up;
11 is that right?
12 A. Yes, I believe so.
13 Q. You didn't raise that topic with her?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Also during the CHEO convention, this June 23rd through 25th
16 of 1994 timeframe, you received a call from Gregg Harris;
17 correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And Mr. Harris called to confirm also that Cheryl was having
20 an adulterous relationship with Rick Seelhoff; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 And Gregg Harris also asked you if you were going to
23 exercise church discipline; correct?
24 A. Yes, I am sure at some point in time he did.
25 Q. And he's the one that brought that topic up; is that right?
330
1 A. Yes, I believe so.
2 Q. Now, at some point when Cheryl returned from the CHEO
3 convention you and your husband had a conversation with Cheryl
4 about her repentance; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you had that conversation in the backyard of your home;
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you had that conversation on about June 27th or so?
10 A. Yes, I believe so.
11 Q. But you knew it was after Cheryl returned from the CHEO
12 convention; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And at the time you had that conversation in the backyard,
15 you had already talked to Gregg Harris; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you'd already talked to Sue Welch; is that right?
18 A. Yes, I think so.
19 Q. Okay. And, in fact, at the backyard conversation you
20 advised Cheryl that indeed you did talk to Sue Welch and to
21 Gregg Harris; right?
22 A. I don't know. I am not sure.
23 Let's take a look at your deposition.
24 MS. DUFFY: Your Honor, I would like to move to publish
25 the original deposition transcript of Irene Williams, and there
331
1 are copies there for Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MS. DUFFY: I am referring to Volume 2 of the Irene
4 Williams deposition.
5 THE COURT: At what page?
6 MS. DUFFY: Take a look at page 541.
7 BY MS. DUFFY:
8 Q. Mrs. Welch, you remember coming to my office for your
9 deposition?
10 A. I am sorry, I thought you said Mrs. Welch.
11 Q. I may have, I am sorry. Mrs. Williams.
12 You remember coming to my office?
13 THE CLERK: Counsel, this volume does not go to page
14 541.
15 THE COURT: Are we talking about some other line?
16 MS. DUFFY: I am sorry, Volume 3.
17 THE COURT: The page is 541, and the line?
18 MS. DUFFY: Lines 14 through 25.
19 THE COURT: Go ahead.
20 BY MS. DUFFY:
21 Q. Mrs. Williams, you recall coming to my office for your
22 deposition; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you recall that you were sworn under oath to answer
25 questions; correct?
332
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you recall in that deposition
3 MS. DUFFY: Your Honor, there's an interpleading
4 objection to the question.
5 THE COURT: All right. Just go to the question and to
6 the answer to the question.
7 Read the question and let her read her answer.
8 BY MS. DUFFY:
9 Q. Okay. I asked you:
10 "We have established that that conversation where you read
11 her the letter was on June 28, 1994. And you're looking at the
12 calendar in front of you. So it was in that conversation where
13 you mentioned to her that you had conversations with Gregg
14 Harris, Sue Welch, and/or Michael Boutot?"
15 What was your answer there?
16 A. My answer, in reference to reading Cheryl the letter and not
17 the backyard conversation was:
18 "No, I'm sure I mentioned to her that I had conversations
19 with Sue Welch and Gregg Harris."
20 Q. Is it your testimony before you read Cheryl a draft of the
21 exposure letter you had talked to Sue Welch and Gregg Harris; is
22 that right?
23 A. I don't remember at this time.
24 Q. Okay. But is that consistent with your deposition testimony
25 there in front of you, that you had advised Cheryl Lindsey that
333
1 she that you had talked to Gregg Harris and to Sue Welch
2 prior to reading the exposure letter to Cheryl Lindsey?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, it was in that backyard meeting that you had a
5 conversation with Cheryl Lindsey about her repentance and you
6 talked to her about certain proofs that you and your husband
7 would like to see to satisfy yourselves that Cheryl had
8 repented; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, we talked to her about repentance and evidence of
10 repentance.
11 Q. Okay. And one of the things that you mentioned to Cheryl
12 that would be evidence of her repentance would be that if she
13 would be out of public ministry; correct?
14 A. We suggested that she should step down from public ministry,
15 yes.
16 Q. And you also suggested that she should not engage in any
17 public speaking; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you suggested that she should not go off alone by
20 herself?
21 A. Yes, although that wasn't for proof of repentance.
22 Q. You suggested to Cheryl Lindsey that she should not go off
23 alone by herself; isn't that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You also suggested to her that she should get rid of her
334
1 beeper; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, for the purpose of
3 MS. DUFFY: Your Honor, I would like to ask -
4 THE COURT: I will have you respond to the question,
5 unless it calls for something. Mr. Lachenmeier will of course
6 come back and get a chance to ask you some questions.
7 BY MS. DUFFY:
8 Q. You also suggested to Mrs. Lindsey, to Cheryl, that she get
9 rid of her personal P.O. Box; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Leaving that topic for a moment, at some point after the
12 backyard meeting you prepared a letter of exposure, is that
13 right, a letter you were going to read to the Calvary Tacoma
14 Chapel; correct?
15 A. Yes, my husband and I did.
16 Q. Okay. And originally when you prepared the letter you
17 intended to read it only to the Calvary Tacoma congregation; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. But it was after you talked to Sue Welch, Michael
21 Boutot and Gregg Harris that you changed your mind; is that
22 right?
23 A. Yes, my husband did.
24 Q. In fact, you actually had a draft of the letter that you
25 changed so that it would be addressed to a wider audience; is
335
1 that right?
2 A. No, I am not sure about that.
3 Q. Okay. The first draft of the letter was addressed to
4 Calvary; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Well, let's take a look at the letter.
7 I apologize, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 20.
8 Do you have that letter in front of you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To whom is that letter addressed?
11 A. "To Brothers and Sisters in the Lord."
12 Q. Okay. And the initial draft of that letter and the letter
13 in front of you, Exhibit No. 20, is that the letter that was
14 read to the Calvary congregation?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The initial draft of that letter was not addressed to
17 Brothers and Sisters in the Lord; is that right?
18 A. I don't recall offhand.
19 Q. But you do remember that your initial intent was to read the
20 letter only to the Calvary congregation; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at Exhibit ?0 there in front of
23 you. That's the letter.
24 This is the letter that was ultimately read to the Calvary
25 congregation; is that right?