UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
AT TACOMA
CHERYL LINDSEY SEELHOFF,
a married woman,
Plaintiff, Tacoma, Washington
vs.
PAT and SUE WELCH,
husband and wife,
Defendants.
Docket No. C97-5383FDB
Tacoma, Washington
September 2, 1998
Trial
Volume 3
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN D. BURGESS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a Jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:
BARBARA J. DUFFY
GWENDOLYN PAYTON KLEIN
Lane Powell Spears Lubersky
1420 Fifth Avenue, Suite 4100
Seattle, Washington 98101-2338
For the Defendants:
RUDY R. LACHENMEIER
LORI DeDOBBELAERE
Lachenmeier, Enloe & Rall
9600 S.W. Capitol Highway
Portland, Oregon 97219
Court Reporter: Teri Hendrix
Union Station Courthouse, Room 3100
1717 Pacific Avenue
Tacoma, Washington 98402
(253) 593-6545
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
produced by Reporter on computer.
Excerpt from transcripts Volume 3 September 2, 1998 Pages 446-683
How to use these documents.
A complete copy of the transcript are availble on an independent web site.
http://members.aol.com/Hsingcase/index.html
(Link provide by permission)
Documents can be ordered by writing to:
US District Court
Western District of Washington
P.O. Box 1935
Tacoma, Washington 98401
585
1 to the question, but if you are saying I don't know, I am hoping
2 to prove something through somebody else, that's not good
3 enough.
4 MS. DUFFY: Fair enough.
5 THE COURT: All right. So let's not get way out there,
6 and I don't know too much to be said. Obviously this
7 information was disseminated, she admits that, but we are
8 getting bogged down in minutia again.
9 Bring them in. Some things just become a waste of time.
10 After I answer yes to something, it can go on forever. That's
11 what I don't want you to do. Get to the point, focus and get it
12 over with.
13 (Jury present.)
14 THE COURT: Continue.
15 BY MS. DUFFY:
16 Q. You had multiple conversations with Joe and Irene Williams;
17 is that correct?
18 A. I had several.
19 Q. And in those conversations, the topic of Cheryl Lindsey
20 stepping out of her ministry came up; is that right?
21 A. I am sure it could have.
22 Q. In fact, it also came up in those conversations that Cheryl
23 was claiming that she had withdrawn from the Calvary Tacoma
24 Church; correct?
25 A. I don't have memory of that right now, but I am certain it
586
1 could have.
2 Q. Well, perhaps your deposition could refresh your
3 recollection. Take a look at page 138 of your deposition.
4 1 want to call your attention to line 23 on page 138. Are
5 you there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I asked you, "In any of your conversations with Joe or Irene
8 Williams, do you recall either of them telling you that Cheryl
9 Lindsey had withdrawn from Calvary Tacoma Church?" What was
10 your answer?
11 A. "At some time, yes."
12 Q. Now, you thought it was appropriate for Cheryl Lindsey to
13 step out, to refrain from public speaking and writing for at
14 least a period of a year; is that right?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And that's a topic that you discussed with Joe and Irene
17 Williams; correct?
18 A. I really honestly don't remember that right now, but it
19 certainly could have been.
20 Q. Okay. And in fact, you were prepared to substitute your
21 magazine, The Teaching Home, with the Gentle Spirit at any point
22 when Cheryl was not publishing; is that right?
23 A. I wouldn't describe it like that.
24 Q. Okay. You were prepared, however, to offer The Teaching
25 Home to Gentle Spirit subscribers; correct?
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1 A. That's not -- no, that's not how I would have described
it.
2 Q. Let's take a look at your deposition at page 147, if you
3 would. Specifically, line 13, 1 asked you this question:
4 "Question: Do you remember talking to Joe and Irene or
5 anybody, in the context of this whole situation, about
6 substituting The Teaching Home magazine for Gentle Spirit
7 Magazine?"
8 What was your answer?
9 A. "Yes. I made an offer to Cheryl that if she had -- if
10 she -- if she decided to discontinue or weren't able to
11 continue, that I would be willing to help her out, to fulfill
12 her subscriptions by sending The Teaching Home to her subscriber
13 list.,,
14 Q. And you discussed this substitution with Joe and Irene
15 Williams?
16 A. I discussed this issue, yes.
17 Q. You also discussed -
18 A. Just a minute, I am getting too rattled here.
19 Q. You also discussed this issue of substituting The Teaching
20 Home for Gentle Spirit with Michael Boutot; correct?
21 A. I have no personal memory right now. It's very possible
22 that I did.
23 Q. In fact, there's a reflection of that in your notes, Exhibit
24 60 in front of you; correct?
25 A. I would have to look at that.
588
1 Q. Well, let's do that. Look at page 80 of Exhibit No. 60.
2 Does that appear to be -- to reflect a conversation you had
3 with Michael Boutot?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. Okay. And in that conversation -- I apologize -- you
6 discussed with Michael Boutot the amount of money that was in
7 the Gentle Spirit bank account; is that right?
8 A. I have that figure there.
9 Q. In fact, the amount of funds in the Gentle Spirit bank
10 account is identified in Document Number 80 of Exhibit 60;
11 correct?
12 A. That's what is written there.
13 Q. And you discussed the fact with Michael Boutot that Gentle
14 Spirit was to be no more; is that right?
15 A. Was to be no more?
16 Q. Well, let's take a look at the notes there, Exhibit 60, page
17 80?
18 A. It says no more. It could be I understood it was going to
19 be no more. I wasn't saying it had to be no more. It just says
20 no more.
21 Q. Now, at some point through the summer of 1994, Irene
22 Williams reported to you that they were swamped with telephone
23 calls on this issue of Cheryl Lindsey; is that right?
24 A. I remember her saying that they had a lot to handle because
25 of this.
589
1 Q. Mrs. Welch, if you could just confine your answer to my
2 question.
3 Irene Williams reported to you that they were swamped with
4 calls regarding this issue of Cheryl Lindsey; correct?
5 A. I can't verify the word that you are stressing.
6 Q. Take a look at page 168 of your deposition, and I want to
7 focus your attention on line 10, page 168. Are you with me
8 there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I asked you: "Well, do you recall a conversation with Irene
11 Williams where she told you that they were swamped with phone
12 calls regarding Cheryl Lindsey?" What was your answer?
13 A. It was "Yes."
14 Q. Indeed, later in late July of 1994, Joe Williams reported to
15 you that he had even received a telephone call from Puerto Rico;
16 is that right?
17 A. I don't remember now.
18 Q. Let's take a look at your notes at Exhibit 63. Do you have
19 that in front of you?
20 A. Not yet.
21 Q. Are you with me there? Look at the front page and then in
22 the middle there, and these -- the top of this document
23 indicates Joe Williams; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In the middle it says, "getting calls from PR." Do you see
590
1 that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in your deposition you -- and you believe that PR stood
4 for Puerto Rico; is that correct?
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. Now, at some point you undertook to actually reimburse the
7 Williamses for their costs of returning telephone calls and
8 postage; is that right?
9 A. I made a contribution to their church for that.
10 Q. And you made a contribution because of the financial burden
11 that you saw that they had experienced with respect to this
12 issue of Cheryl Lindsey; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, you talked to Jonathan Lindvall about this issue of
15 Cheryl Lindsey's relationship with Rick Seelhoff; correct?
16 A. I don't remember now at this time.
17 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit 60, page 81. Are you with me
18 there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. There's a reference there to Jonathan Lindvall; correct?
21 A. I haven't found it yet.
22 Q. The first page, it's right next to -
23 A. I am sorry, I must have the wrong page.
24 Q. Exhibit 60?
25 A. Yes.
591
1 Page Welch 61?
2 A. 61. 1 am sorry, I have it.
3 Q. It's the first page, and that refers to Jonathan Lindvall;
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, it has Jonathon Lindvall's name there. According to
6 what I see here, it looks like Gregg might have been calling
7 him.
8 Q. But for purposes of my question, I am asking you whether you
9 recall that you contacted Jonathan Lindvall, and I take it your
10 answer is you don't know; is that right?
11 A. I am sorry, I can't remember that.
12 Q. Well, let's take a look at your letter of July 1, 1994, to
13 Cheryl Lindsey. That's Exhibit No. 22 there in front of you.
14 Are you with me?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I want you to take a look at the third page of Exhibit 22.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yies, I do.
19 Q. And that third page -- why don't you read that second full
20 paragraph of that third page.
21 A. "Sue has told Jonathan Lindvall and the Boutots. Jonathan
22 is informing a conference host in California where you were
23 scheduled to speak in August, and Michael Boutot will be calling
24 you."
25 Q. So you advised Cheryl Lindsey that you had informed Jonathan
592
1 Lindvall; correct?
2 A. Yes, I had talked to him.
3 Q. And you advised Cheryl Lindsey, at least on July 1 of 1994,
4 that Jonathan Lindvall was informing a conference host in
5 California where Cheryl was expected to speak; correct?
6 A. That's what he would have told me.
7 Q. But you told Cheryl Lindsey that; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You also advised Cheryl Lindsey that no one had yet
10 contacted your advertisers; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And indeed the topic of notifying Cheryl Lindsey's
13 advertisers and subscribers and columnists came up with some
14 frequency in your notes, Exhibit 60; correct?
15 A. It had been mentioned, yes.
16 Q. Now, at some point you had talked to Mary Pride about this
17 issue with Cheryl Lindsey; correct?
18 A. I don't know if I talked to her or just faxed her the three
19 pages.
20 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at Exhibit 66. Are you with me
21 there?
22 A. Not yet.
23 Q. I seem to go from 65 to 67. Maybe it is out of sequence
24 here. We are looking for Exhibit 66.
25 MR. LACHENMEIER: Has this been offered?
593
1 MS DUFFY: Yes.
2 THE CLERK: No, it hasn't.
3 MS. DUFFY: Your Honor, we would like to offer 66.
4 MR. LACHENMEIER: No objection.
5 THE COURT: Admitted.
6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 66 received in evidence.).
7 BY MS. DUFFY:
8 Q. You talked with Mary Pride. In that conversation, you had
9 the impression that she and her employee David Ayers were
10 contemplating exposure of Cheryl Lindsey; is that right?
11 A. I don't know that I came to that information from talking to
12 Mary, but I think it was a fax -- it was faxed to me.
13 Q. If you can confine your answer to my question.
14 MR. LACHENMEIER: Your Honor, I believe she was
15 answering the question.
16 THE COURT: Well, I believe if I can get you two to
17 settle down we may wind ourselves through this, and Ms. Welch,
18 if we can ask you to respond as succinctly as you can to the
19 question and wait on the next one. If there's anything else you
20 want to say, your counsel will bring these matters up and you
21 will get a chance to explain anything you think you should
22 explain.
23 THE CLERK: She now has 66.
24 THE COURT: I believe she has 66 in front of her.
25 BY MS. DUFFY:
594
1 Q. Exhibit 66 is in your handwriting; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Exhibit 66 is a letter to Bill and Mary Pride from you dated
4 July 14, 1994; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And attached to it was the packet of information we've
7 already talked about, the letter regarding Cheryl Lindsey's
8 extramarital relationship with her husband, Rick Seelhoff; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes, the three sheets.
11 Q. Now, you knew that Mary Pride published a magazine called
12 Help For Growing Families, correct, at the time you sent this
13 fax to Mary Pride?
14 A. At the time I did not know if she was in publication; it was
15 an on and off again affair.
16 Q. You know that Mary Pride published, at some point, Help For
17 Growing Families?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the issue -- and you also knew, it was sort of an on and
20 off flailing magazine; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in fact, you believe that Help For Growing Families was
23 a magazine quite like Gentle Spirit; is that right?
24 A. It was similar in some ways, yes.
25 Q. Mary Pride isn't a president of any of your statewide home
595
1 schooling organizations; correct?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. I want you, if you would, to read for us the letter that you
4 wrote to Mary Pride.
5 A. "Dear Bill and Mary, it is with sadness and humbleness that
6 I fax you the following pages. You will hear something sooner
7 or later and I believe that it would be best for you to hear
8 this way from Cheryl's pastor. I also believe that you will use
9 discretion in passing this information on only to those who need
10 to know.
11 "By the way, for your information only, Cheryl 'met' the
12 'other man' through E-mail as did another Christian home school
13 leader in Nevada who also divorced as a result.
14 "How is Ted? We are still praying and would love an update.
15 "Only because of His faithfulness, Sue."
16 Now, after you sent Mary Pride this letter on July 14, you
17 followed up with a telephone conversation; correct?
18 A. I am sorry, that's what I don't remember.
19 Q. Let's take a look at your deposition at page 402.
20 A. That must be a second book that I don't have.
21 MS. DUFFY: I am sorry, I would like to move to publish
22 Volume 2 of Sue Welch's deposition.
23 BY MS. DUFFY:
24 Q. I want to call your attention to page 402, line 7, and I
25 asked you: "Okay. Mary Pride testified that after she received
596
1 this she had a telephone conversation with you. Do you recall a
2 telephone conversation with Mary Pride?"
3 And what was your answer?
4 A. My answer at that time was, "Yes, I remember talking to
5 her."
6 Q. And this is a deposition that was taken of you on April 20th
7 of 1998; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. In that deposition you were sworn under oath to tell the
10 truth?
11 A. Definitely.
12 Q. And you told me -- isn't it true that after the conversation
13 you had with Mary Pride, that you believed that Mary Pride, upon
14 hearing the news about Cheryl Lindsey, she was considering
15 restarting her flailing magazine, Help For Growing Families; was
16 that right?
17 A. I didn't get all of your sequence of events. I am sorry, I
18 didn't get all your question.
19 Q. After you and Mary Pride had a conversation -- strike that.
20 After you and Mary Pride had a conversation about Cheryl
21 Lindsey, Mary Pride told you that upon hearing this news, Mary
22 Pride was considering restarting her failing magazine, Help For
23 Growing Families; is that correct?
24 A. I believe so.
25 Q. In fact, when you talked to her, you got the impression that
597
1 Mary Pride saw this information as creating a gap in the
2 marketplace that she could fill with her magazine, Help For
3 Growing Families; correct?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. In that conversation with Mary Pride, you got the impression
6 that she and her employees were contemplating an expose' of
7 Cheryl Lindsey; correct?
8 A. I don't believe at that time and not in a conversation with
9 her.
10 Q. Let's take a look at page 468 of your deposition testimony,
11 particularly lines 11 through 20. Are you with me?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I asked you: "When you received that fax, as you sit here,
14 looking back on receipt of that fax, did you have any
15 information that suggested that Mary Pride or David Ayers were
16 contemplating an expose' on Cheryl Lindsey?"
17 What was your answer?
18 A. "I have stated several times that to the best of my memory
19 there was some impression gained, whether correct or incorrect,
20 that Mary Pride and David Ayers, and/or, were contemplating an
21 expose' as you call it. Now, whether I thought this led to it,
22 I can't remember at the time."
23 Q. Now, after you sent the fax to Mary Pride -- strike that.
24 And you got the impression, when you talked to Mary Pride,
25 that the information that you had given her was the first news
598
1 that she got about Cheryl Lindsey and her now husband Rick
2 Seelhoff; correct?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. Now, after your conversation with Mary Pride, you received a
5 fax from her employee, David Ayers; is that right?
6 A. Yes, either myself or Kevin Bradley.
7 Q. So your office received such a fax from Mary Pride of Help
8 For Growing Families?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it included several AOL postings; correct?
11 A. I can't remember right now. If I had a copy in my file,
12 then I did.
13 Q. You understood Mary Pride had access to the Internet?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. At the time you didn't have access to the Internet?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Do you. recall at any time- Mary Pride requesting you to
18 provide her with Cheryl Lindsey's phone number?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Claude Lindsey's phone number, do you remember if Mary Pride
21 or her employee asked you for that information?
22 A. I can't remember right now.
23 Q. Now, in as late as October of 1995, you had discussions with
24 Joe and Irene Williams regarding Cheryl Lindsey; correct?
25 A. I would have to look at notes. I don't remember those